Hey, Atheists, Hey…
I promise that the first letter isn’t as offensive…I make no promises for the other letters below. Enjoy!
Hey, Rational Atheists, Hey,
I enjoy some conversations with you. We let each other coexist peacefully. You allow me to pray in your presence and witness about Jesus at times. I allow you to espouse your non-belief and questions about everything I believe, but we walk away with respect for each other. Jesus is real to me and he may/may not have existed to you, but there is a level of respect I have for you because you are actually intrigued to want to know why I believe what I believe without “proof” and I question why you feel the need “proof” for everything when some things we do in life require faith whether we realize it or not. Seldom do you delve into personal reasons to be anti-Christian or anti-religion.
You’re cool!
(But I’m still yet praying for you) 🙂
Hey, Angry Atheists, Hey,
Listen. Y’all have got to stop being so angry. It’s hard to take you seriously. Also, you always evangelize. Seriously, you do. Your 180-times-a-day tweets lauding Atheism and how you respond more to “reason” and “evidence” over “belief”…in anything…while mocking those who just apparently aren’t as smart as you are because you’ve perused The God Delusion that one time in Border’s, but haven’t read any other holy book. Sure, you start a conversation rationally, but then you dive overboard with accusations against Christianity alone. I mean, other religions have done heinous things as well. Why not hold everyone to the same standard? And if we’re being honest, there have been plenty of Atheists as well who’ve done some heinous things. Yeah, there have been. Just because someone is a leader of a Muslim country or a Holy Roman Empire doesn’t mean they believe as they mandate. They could just like power and all that it brings. (Heck, recently, Saudi Arabia found out that 5% of its population identified as Atheist, which shocked them, and they have an all-Islam-everything mandate.) I think that wars started and continued more for greed, money, and power more than any religious mandate. I’m sorry if the church hurt you in your past (or present), but maybe your gripe is with those particular people who wronged you and not something effectively intangible.
IJS
Hey, Fake Atheists, Hey,
Okay, I know this resurgent “new” wave of Atheism that’s sweeping the world is “exciting” and “interesting,” but I don’t think you should sign on to it when you still believe in God, or just left your church or faith because you came out as gay, or your pastor embezzled your offerings, or someone said something wrong to your younger brother and you used that as an excuse to stop going to church, which you wanted to do anyway, because you’d rather brunch and sit at the park on Sundays. The last time this happened (the 1960s), it lasted for about a decade and a half or so, then it fizzled out. The time before that the same thing happened. History repeats itself. Aside from that, fake Atheist, some of you are actually Agnostic (look it up) because you believe there is a God (or universal force) but we cannot intimately know Him or it. Some of you actually are Christians or believe in God, and even pray from time to time (even some committed real Atheists pray when requested if it’ll make someone feel comfortable? Like…what is going on?! Pick a side! LOL). Some of you go to church to find out more. If you’ve already decided what you are, why are you still trying to poke holes in this Christianity thing just to try and make it collapse, which it hasn’t done in over 2000 years (and before that as Judaism). Maybe you could classify yourself as non-religious, Christian (which some of you are, but it’s “easier” to say Atheist), or the dreaded Spiritual (I have a problem with that classification because it puts importance on self above anything else), but don’t call yourself something you’re not.
Thanks for listening, everyone, regardless of where you fall in the Godless spectrum, even if it’s right up there with Him. 🙂
Sincerely,
Keene Point of View
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Category: Christianity, Gay
I like to think I would fall under the rational atheists here, and I’ve always felt that angry atheists were d-bags– though I’ll always love Christopher Hitchens. But I think you might be a little harsh on the Fake Atheists. Even if someone’s beliefs are changing rapidly, it’s not for you to say they aren’t legit. And wouldn’t any nice rational atheist pray( or pretend to) to put someone at ease? i have often done this. Heck, I got confirmed just to make my Grandma happy. If it’s all mumbo jumbo to me, why wouldn’t I fold my hands for a little bit to make someone more comfortable?
PS–Wassa Spiritual??
Hi Monty! Thanks for reading. By “Fake Atheist,” I don’t mean those who are questioning and about to break away from a faith. I’m talking about those who do it to fit in with a group (believe me, they’re out there and I’m friends with a few), or are disillusioned with church, but still believe in God, just not church, and classify themselves as Atheists when they’re actually not. Just say you’re “questioning” or “searching”. The Atheism descriptor seems like a cop-out for them. As for praying just to make someone comfortable, I don’t get that. It’s a false comfort. You can bow your head and pray along if you want me to feel comfortable when I ask for prayer, but if I know you don’t believe it, that wouldn’t comfort me if you’re actually saying a prayer. Again, I wasn’t talking about thoughtful Atheists (I “get” why it’s done and it’s appreciated), but those who really aren’t Atheists.
Spiritual people are those people who don’t identify with one religion or another, but believe in something (universe, “Spirit,” “The Four Agreements,” “The Secret,” – yes, I’ve read them and yes I was like, “um…Girl, what?!”), or even God/Jesus/Holy Spirit, and don’t feel the need to evangelize, but keep their religion personal and private. However, it’s been my experience that these people sometimes look down on others who share their faith and get really easily and amazingly offended when they directly or indirectly encounter anyone evangelizing.
“I question why you feel the need “proof” for everything when some things we do in life require faith whether we realize it or not.”
I’ll answer that for you from my perspective. In a world, and in the US, where we are often surrounded by religion and people telling us that we absolutely must believe in a god to be considered moral or to have a fulfilled life, we as Atheists insist that we don’t, as many of us are living a moral and fulfilling life without it.
There is a spectrum of Atheist experiences the same way there are Black or Gay or Women’s experiences, but one thing that many of us insist is that with the peculiar things that the Bible commands and insists have or could happen, we simply need evidence or it doesn’t matter. Many of the things that Christians attribute to a god, we simply attribute to life as it happens naturally.When people insist on all of these things that they refer from the Bible, we can only come to a conclusion to believe them if they can prove what they say. However, there is no proof other than subjectivity and the Bible itself.
Many Atheists, like myself, have studied the Bible and other holy books extensively, and drew our conclusions thereafter. We simply don’t believe in what it has to say, because it’s baseless and oftentimes absurd.
It’s not just the Christian god that we don’t believe in. In America, Christianity is the dominant religion, so we address that more often, AND it is the one most pushed in the public sphere. They are instructed to proselytize, and even when you say “No thanks”, they STILL push it on you. You may not be one of these, but there are way more of the opposite. If me not believing in a god ended there with respect from all fronts, I personally wouldn’t be so vocal.
However, I am often bombarded and my sense of peace impeded on by family, friends, and strangers who insist that something is wrong with me because I don’t believe in a god, and that this god’s ways are to be a part of every part of life. So many people base their every action on what they believe a god is telling them, but I can’t agree with them unless I have solid proof that this god itself has said what they’re claiming, and even then, if I look at the same set of doctrines that a religious person references, I find a ton of things wrong with it. Even the Bible isn’t a complete book, and has been misinterpreted and its history questionable. I can’t overlook something like that when someone insists that their doctrine and the god that it professes is perfect.
Proof is everything. If I told you that I was going to give you $1,000,000 for sitting in a room for a year without interuption and without leaving, you would want to see the money and know that this was legit. You wouldn’t just volunteer just in case. You could be doing so many other things that you KNOW will be useful and beneficial, not something that you strongly BELIEVE might be. That is all Atheists are doing. We say prove it or I’ll leave you to your claims and continue on my own path.
After so much of people overstepping their boundaries and pushing their religion, I push back. I’m only pushing back and being as vocal as they are being to me, as are many other Atheists. We just want to live life without religion being pushed on us or in politics, since we have freedom from religion. We want policies to be created based on the greater good of everyone, not just what a god (that we can’t prove exists and don’t know which is right anyway) says.
Also, there are many Atheists that are still afraid to come out of the closet and say that they don’t believe, because they will be disowned and treated differently at home, work, or in their communities. Since Atheists are not widely represented in (American) society, we have to be vocal to let others know that we are in fact here and are not ashamed of what we don’t believe, so that they will have the courage to live the way that they want to and not be miserable.
I know this is long, but I want you to see where I’m going with this.
Now that I’ve had my drank… (our inside Twitter joke)
1. Living a moral life without a guideline for it. Many of our guidelines in the U.S. for morality come from the Bible and the Ten Commandments. We’re not living by Hammurabi’s Code. The common Christian question for moral living is, “What are you basing your morality on? Society? That changes and even society’s rules of moral engagement today are different from what they were twenty years ago.” Some will tell you that cheating on a spouse and not getting caught/telling them is morally okay because what the spouse doesn’t know doesn’t hurt them – and these people believe they are living morally. Others will tell you to get a shotgun ready to take out the cheating bastard. It seems fluid. I think that’s what they mean when questioning who decides what is moral.
2. Sunrises, sunsets, the human eye, the human circulatory system, the human nervous system, nature itself, and how Earth seems to be unique in the universe because we haven’t found life like ours (if at all) on other planets aside from methane ice volcanoes (which would be cool to see – a volcano of ICE?)…I just see all of that as pointing to a mind behind their creation. I know some scientists who aren’t Christians who have gone on record to say that SOMETHING thought of this stuff to make it work because it’s too specific to be random. My pastor was an avowed Atheist and scientist before coming to Christ and thought even back in college that “something” had to put this together. It’s too much to just be random.
3. The Bible actually says that about itself – anyone who doesn’t believe in Jesus will find it absurd and hard to take seriously. I mean, before I became a Christian at 15, I read Revelation like it was a scary sci-fi fantasy and was all, “Wait. Noah had lions on a boat with his family and survived?” Now I’m like, “Yeah, he did.” I’m glad you’ve actually read up. Many Atheists I encounter actually haven’t read up (a former coworker tried to get into it with me and I had to tell him what the actual verses were) and only quote stuff from when they were in Sunday school or the more popular stories, many of which have been misinterpreted.
4. I’ll concede that some Christians need to know when to back off. “As much as possible, live peaceably with all people.” Our responsibility doesn’t lie in hammering away at someone until they believe in Jesus because ultimately that’s the Holy Spirit who will illuminate that path for that person at the right time. I know why Christians do that, but if they’d just leave people alone after telling them that they’re sinners in need of a Savior named Jesus who is fully God and fully man, died and rose for them so they wouldn’t have to die and can live eternally – and it was all done out of love and for a connection from God to his greatest creation, man, they’d be happier. I’m only responsible for sharing that message. If the seed falls on hard ground, soft ground, or fertile ground, at least it’s gone out. Like a militant Atheist told my church one time (via video), if the reality is that sinners without Jesus die and go to hell, and it’s their eternal soul at risk, every Christian should tell someone that at least one time, even if they don’t believe it. They need to hear it. I was impressed with his knowledge of the work of Christ – he knew more than a lot of Christians. I’m sorry you’re getting beaten about the brow with the Bible. That’s not what should happen at all. My mom used to beat her brothers and sisters in the head with the Bible and it never worked to save them. Each of them came to Christ on their own much later in life without her direct help. Maybe a seed was sewn, but it used to frustrate her that they weren’t getting saved with all her “witnessing”. We didn’t know her own mother got saved until she wrote a letter for my 16th birthday book (a sweet gift of life advice letters from my older, wiser relatives. I love that thing). As for Atheists targeting Christians in America, yeah, that’s because of America’s dominant religion here, but this also happens in other countries even where Christians are minorities, on top of the majority religion of that country persecuting the Christians there. I just don’t see other countries’ Atheists rising up against Muslims, Buddhists, Confucians, Satanists, Wiccans, Witches, Luciferians, etc.
5. & 6. I’ll just say two things – that’s where faith comes in for Christians. I believe (and know/have seen) that there is an invisible world here with stuff I can’t fully comprehend or understand. Can I see it? No. Can I see the effects? Yes. Like a toothache, I can’t see it but I can feel it. You can determine the cause of the toothache and even measure the pain on a scale and through brain waves, but you can’t see the pain itself. Finally, for this one, the Bible says, “Taste and see that the Lord is good.” God wants us to experience and digest him, not just dot “i”s and cross “t”s by following the steps indicated in the Bible. But again, what I’m saying won’t make sense unless someone experiences this. We can discuss it back and forth, but we’ll reach an impasse eventually on this. As for proof of stuff, a lot of non-theists look to science for evidence and proof. Some say science has never let them down. If they lived in 1799 and were George Washington, science would have let them down because people were bled by leeches to reduce fevers then, which seemed to work, but was actually killing them.
7. Yeah, I understand wanting to show people that there are others out there and they don’t have to be alone, but does it have to be angry? Anger responding to anger doesn’t go well. Some people honestly are just pissed with the church (EYE am pissed with the church, but know it’s linked to people, who are fallible humans and not God) and connect how people treated them to how God “must be,” which is flawed thinking. Like I said, some of these people are my friends and actually believe in God, but are too through with the church and classify themselves as Atheists, but actually aren’t. And some Atheists actually live Biblically and do what Jesus said without knowing it, so they might get a surprise after dying. (smile)
Thanks for reading and offering your view. I appreciate it (really). I just find it funny that my first real dialogue about religion on this site comes from Atheists when I started this project to espouse the proper treatment of gays from Christians and society. LOL
1) Actually, the Constitution and other political doctrines which were mainly philosophical, stemming from other Democraties and Republics, rather than religious doctrine. I think that is a huge misconception that many Christians have. It is often insisted that this country was built on Christian theology, when that is not the case. A great deal of those who founded the American political system were deists, not exactly Christians, and many disagreed with adding religion to the equation at all. If anything, since the Europeans that came over were primarily Christian, then this is the religious culture that prevailed in a cultural sense, however, it is not the sole foundation of our laws. We have the Greeks, Decartes, Locke, and other political philosphers to thank for that. Government was intently set up for the purpose of serving the greater good of society with the intent of being run secularly, without corruption from the church.
2) Sunrises happen on plenty of other planets, however, due to the elemental structure, it may occur differently than it does here. Nothing magical or intentional there. Some elements spun into gasseous planets, others formed planets of mass. We just so happened to hit the lotto with how we evolved to fit the elements. We are made of the same stuff that we need to survive. Also, there are entire galaxies that we have no access to. We can’t say for certain that we are the only kind of life there is in the entire universe. What we have become on this planet is a combination of what happens when the right elements come together, single-cell organisms evolve over time in different conditions all over the world over millions of years becoming other species of creatures. That’s it. Nothing really special. I see no creator’s intention in any of this. From the way that the Earth was supposedly created in Genesis, to the reason and method this god took in creating life on this planet are out of touch with how nature, time and space really work. Of course, there are always going to be those scientists that try to say that something had a hand in it, but it’s still subjective, and they have no proof. And these scientists (very few in number) will not adhere to this as a solid explanation of definitive intuitive creation from a being. No one has ever defined or measured a god or its effects, so the opinion of a couple of scientists, even in the scientific community, doesn’t matter until they can provide measurable data to back up their claims. And even they will concede to that. If they did offer up this theory, it is still going to be objectively tested and peer reviewed. However, it hasn’t been, because there is no evidence.
3) The Bible says a lot of things about itself. Unfortunately, it can’t be used to justify itself. I’m glad that you read it, but there are millions of Christians who don’t. Even still, it’s all subjective and left up to interpretation rather than one solid truth, and I think it’s important to establish credibility. I also think that where we differ is the mindset that we have when we read the Bible. If I read it, I read it objectively and I question everything that this god and the other characters say and do for their moral content and for its plausibility. The Bible is no different than reading Greek myth. There are just too many things that this god does that I don’t find fitting of something that would be omni- anything. It has very human character traits. Also, after knowing that different people had a hand in re-writing and mis-interpreting the Bible, it becomes even clearer for me that it’s just not reliable. If this god really wanted to protect the integrity of its work, it would do so. Yet, there is historical proof that there was tampering of the original documents.
4) Here again lies the issue that Atheists have with Christians. This idea that they really believe this, and that it must be right, so they must tell people. I get it, you have to spread the word, but it’s not ethical to do so! It’s an invasion of privacy. Also, what proof do you have that you have to spread the word? The Bible? Ok, but when we try to point out its flaws and insist that it’s not valid, we aren’t listened to, because of the “faith” in it. I could provide proof that a mad man in the woods wrote the Bible, and I would be told, “no, that’s not what the Bible says”. The desire to believe in it trumps any evidence that contradicts it in any way, and that is dangerous, because it sets people up to make it okay to do that with anything. It’s faith, not fact that keeps Christians holding on. We’re just saying “Give us a break!” We are saying, no one has a right to tell us what what to believe, so we don’t want to hear it at all. We don’t want to be approached, we don’t want to be judged, we want to be left alone, yet we’re picked at constantly. It’s like poking the bull and wonder why it attacks. Also, this whole Christians being persecuted everywhere is a bit much. Everyone experiences persecution from someone. In some countries, like the US, the Christians persecute everything that isn’t Christian. In other places, the Buddhists are persecuted by whomever they have beef with, the people of Isreal cry persecution but Palestine is still under their boot, so honestly, I don’t buy it. What I’ve found is that many Christians are told by their doctrine that they hold a monoply on truth and morality, so anyone that disagrees is considered opposition. Any objection to their beliefs or attempts to make room for others is considered persecution. “What, I can’t say Merry Christmas to everyone including the Muslims?! They’re trying to take away my religious rights! I’m being persecuted!” It’s not that serious.
5 & 6) Here’s the thing with science, it is a process and something that corrects itself through actual work. In every day life, we’re all scientists. We go by what we can measure, what works. And after all that work is done, we know how things work, because we get the same results when we test things out. We therefore use the same scientific method that scientists use. As a result of this method, we have the very computers we’re typing on as well as the doctors that treat the maladies we experience. There are people that still try to heal through prayer and end up killing themselves, rather than going to someone who has been trained and who know the science behind their ailment. I trust the scientific method, because it is scrutinized by others who do the actual work for years. Science changes, and it widely publicized and life is therefore made better. The Bible and it’s theories are assumed to be perfect and indesputable, so there’s no room to correct anything. You’re right, faith is about what you feel, and feelings can be totally wrong. Scientists have to accept the results whether they meet their original hypothesis or not. When I was a Christian, I just knew that the warm tinglies I got from praying was god, but now I get that same feeling from reading a good book or hugging a family member. Feelings can be dispelled, so I don’t trust the whole faith thing. Either it is or it isn’t. So, it comes back to proving whether this is a god or if people are just so hyped up on the concept that they have given themselves the warm-n-fuzzies. As someone who has been there, I’m convinced that’s all faith is. Wishful thinking + Warm Fuzzies.
7) I refer back to the fact that we are constantly approached by Christians, constantly preached to, constantly invaded by “let me tell you about god, let me pray for your wretched soul”, and we just don’t want to be bothered. You snuck in a little preaching earlier, and didn’t realize it, but most Christians have no idea their doing it. It’s just annoying that it keeps happening. Now, I’m not going to pretend to know what it’s like to be gay, but imagine if every time you went out, people were handing you pamphlets saying that being gay is bad, approaching you saying, “Hey, are you straight or gay? You look like a good straight person”, asking why you don’t have a girlfriend and telling you that being straight is the only way to be. All day, everyday, everywhere, whether they know you or not. Imagine entire television and radio programs devoted to specifically to “making people hetero”. And when you tell them that you are happy being who you are or that you don’t live their lifestyle, they go out of their way every time they see or interact with you to tell you about how great it is to be straight, how important it is to have children in a heterosexual household, all day, every day, when it’s none of their business and not their place to say. THAT is where the frustration comes in. It’s a mirror of the constant push that we get. It grates our nerves. Imagine Jehova Witnesses ringing your doorbell (which they have no right to do in the first place) AND following you around all day. I get sick of religious people thinking that it’s okay to constantly tell me about their religion. I don’t want to hear it! I have the right not to hear it. Leave me alone! People need to realize that they don’t know the truth so they don’t have the right to push it on me or anyone else. Atheists just get fed up. It’s like someone saying “why are Black people so angry?”. They’re not naturally angry, but look at what they have to deal with! That is where the anger comes from. We’re sick of the madness as well as the ignorance that results from “faith”.
I’m glad that we can talk about this stuff, as I always welcome healthy discussion. Please note that my tone might come off as aggressive, but it’s more passion. At no time was I “angry” writing this. I say this because in debates, I’ve been thought to be upset when I’m really just engaged and passionate, and am in no way upset. I’m just a fiery Aries, don’t mind the sparks.
If you could see how long it just took me to get the “reply” button to show on my dashboard…LOL
1. The colonies were mostly founded on the Bible and Biblical principles. Reason philosophies and other ideologies were used (along with the Bible) in creating the Constitution for our country today. My point was about what defines morality for many people, and it’s not the Constitution. Also, I’ll give you that John Adams was about the only committed Christian in the bunch and the others were Deists or some other type of church-going Mason, but some of them (even shockingly Ben Franklin) called upon their assemblies to pray. Ben did it once when the group was threatening to disband when they were THISCLOSE to getting the country started.
2. & 3. We disagree.
4. Christians being attacked by everyone from Buddhists to Hindus to Muslims around the world is a problem the Western world doesn’t see much of, but it’s there. The last part about Merry Christmas I “get” but I agree that it does get ridiculous on both sides. Most non-Christians I know either say, “Happy Holidays” back or “Merry Christmas” back and don’t think it’s a big deal. After all, some of them aren’t rejecting egg nog, cookies, ugly sweaters, carols, or ANY gifts on December 25th. Okay, maybe Jews for Hanukkah, but most Jews I know celebrate Christmas. LOL (Jehovah’s Witnesses have to come by the house to get their gift on the 26th. My cheer dried up the morning of. Haha)
5. & 6. I see faith as more than just warm tingles. Sometimes it’s that. A lot of times it’s rough, tough, and I question if God is even paying attention to me. There is peace and joy, but there’s also times where I’m like, “Okay, WHAT IS GOING ON, GOD?!” I believe that faith, like truth, “is”.
7. As I said, some Christians need to know when to back off. It’s annoying for gay people to constantly be told they’re the scum of the earth, even if coded language is used to do so, and to tell them that the only reason they should get saved is to come out of the gay lifestyle, which, eh, ain’t the case for 99% of those who get saved. I just politely tell those people to get back behind a boundary line. I will go off if I need to, but most respect my firm standing. I actually stopped talking to an old friend as much because of something similar to this. We couldn’t even hang out anymore without topics returning to something I’ve made myself clear on multiple times. I understand the frustration.
Thank you for clarifying, ’cause GURRRRL, I was ’bout to get two more dranks in me and… 🙂
Ha! Dranks! Grape dranks! ‘Cause we’re Black. Ooop, I just stereotyped.
But I enjoy the dialogue. I’m glad that you were able to do so in a mature fashion, even though we’re not likely to change each other’s minds.
And dammit, I like celebrating the Christmas holiday and all its pagan traditions. I grew up on Christmas, but you’d have a hard time getting me to sit through church. Not gonna happen without me raising my hand mid-sermon or giving major side-eyes at what I see/hear for 3 hours. You should have seen me recently. I went to church for a rememberance service, and I had to sit by myself. I had too many comments. Yeah, I’m sure people in my family think I’m going to hell. lol